Liftoff with Jeanniey Walden · Cannes
Drew Cashmore of Vantage on Retail Media, Trade Dollars, and Non-Endemic
Who’s on this episode
Hosted by Jeanniey Walden, founder and host of Liftoff with Jeanniey Walden, recorded at Cannes.
What you’ll learn
- Why retail media dollars concentrate at Amazon and Walmart, and where the other 90% of growth has to come from.
- How trade and marketing budgets are merging as brands chase the next best dollar.
- What growth metric actually persuades a brand’s executives to keep investing.
- Why brands advertise with their biggest retail partners whether they want to or not.
- Why non-endemic advertising is differentiated, valuable, and very hard to pull off.
Episode highlights
- 00:00Catching Drew mid-sprint at Cannes
- 00:27From a media event to a retail media event
- 00:50Amazon and Walmart at the top, 10% below
- 01:20Marketing vs merchandising: one bucket or two?
- 02:29The next best dollar: trade and marketing merge
- 03:00Brands expect more: infrastructure and measurement
- 03:30The metric that matters: single-retailer growth
- 04:20Endemic vs non-endemic, and the 70% problem
- 04:55Why he is obsessed with non-endemic
Episode summary
Drew Cashmore has watched Cannes turn from a pure media event into a retail media event, and he reads that shift as proof retailers are finally trying to differentiate themselves through media. When he zooms out on the space, the money tells a stark story: a significant amount flows to Amazon and Walmart at the top, and only about 10% of total retail media spend sits below them. The work in front of the industry, he says, is the thing that has already worked in Europe, shifting dollars into the broader ecosystem so the rest of the market can grow.
Jeanniey presses him on the oldest tension in retail, the one she lived as a CMO at a retail pharmacy: do retail media budgets simply drain merchandising’s trade dollars? Cashmore spent his career arguing marketing and trade were two separate buckets. He now believes they are becoming linked, with brands weighing the next best dollar across packaging, cost of goods, price cuts, and retail media alike. But he is blunt that the accounting matters less than the outcome. Brands have been taught to expect more from every investment, and if the industry cannot build the infrastructure, technology, and measurement to prove that value, it loses.
Asked what a brand should carry back to its executives, his answer is simple: total growth, and specifically single-retailer growth. If a retailer represents a material share of a brand’s sales, that brand will advertise there or risk losing shelf space and share. Then he turns to the debate he clearly loves. Roughly 70% of retail media today is product listing ads, a product and a price in a category search. Non-endemic advertising, done well, offers real customer value through a discount or access a shopper would not otherwise get. He is bullish on it as a growth engine, and honest that it is hard: he spent 13 years trying to introduce it at Walmart, and points to partners like Fluent now creating value in territory most retailers have found too difficult to operate.
Key takeaways
- 00:35 Cannes has shifted from a pure media event to a retail media event, a sign retailers are trying to differentiate themselves through media.
- 00:50 Retail media dollars concentrate at Amazon and Walmart; only about 10% of total spend sits below them, and the goal is to grow the rest of the market as Europe has.
- 02:29 Marketing and trade were long treated as two buckets; they are now merging as brands weigh the next best dollar across packaging, cost of goods, price, and media.
- 02:55 Brands expect more from every investment; without the right infrastructure, technology, and measurement, retail media loses.
- 03:30 The measurement that matters is total growth, specifically single-retailer growth, because that is what drives a brand’s willingness to keep investing.
- 03:55 If a retailer carries a material share of a brand’s sales, the brand will advertise there or risk losing share to competitors.
- 04:20 About 70% of retail media is product listing ads; non-endemic, done well, delivers differentiated creative and real customer value through discounts or access.
- 04:55 Non-endemic is his growth engine but very hard to execute; he spent 13 years trying at Walmart, and partners like Fluent are now creating value there.
Questions people ask
Who is Drew Cashmore?
Drew Cashmore is Chief Strategy Officer at Vantage, a technology platform that unifies retail media and marketing operations. He spent 13 years at Walmart and was part of the executive team that built Walmart Connect, and he is a widely followed voice on retail and commerce media.
Where do retail media dollars actually go?
Cashmore says a significant share flows to Amazon and Walmart at the top, and only about 10% of total retail media spend sits below them. The industry’s goal, mirroring what has worked in Europe, is to shift dollars into the broader ecosystem so the rest of the market can grow.
Are marketing and trade or merchandising budgets separate?
Cashmore spent his career arguing they were two separate buckets, marketing and trade, but he now sees them becoming linked. Brands increasingly weigh the next best dollar across packaging, cost of goods, price reductions, and retail media, though he adds that the distinction matters less than delivering measurable value.
What is the best measurement of retail media success?
Total growth, and specifically single-retailer growth. Cashmore says if a brand sees growth within a retail partner, that drives their willingness to invest, and brands that rely on a retailer for a material share of sales will advertise there or risk losing share.
What is the difference between endemic and non-endemic retail media?
Endemic advertising promotes products sold by the retailer, and about 70% of retail media today is product listing ads: a product and a price inside a category search. Non-endemic advertising comes from brands outside the retailer’s shelf and, done well, offers real customer value through a discount or access the shopper would not otherwise get.
Why is non-endemic retail media so hard?
Cashmore is bullish on non-endemic as a growth engine because it is differentiated in creative and customer benefit, but he notes it is genuinely hard to execute. He tried to introduce it during 13 years at Walmart, and says partners like Fluent are now creating value in an area that has been too difficult for many retailers to operate.
Full transcript
Jeanniey Walden: Drew, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Drew Cashmore: Thank you for having me.
Jeanniey Walden: I’m really excited that you finally had time to speak to little old me. You’ve been running around this event. I’ve been watching you go from here to there and here to there, and I’m just: please stop, please, please have a conversation with me. I just want to know what you’re thinking about retail media. And thank you, you finally found some time.
Drew Cashmore: Super excited to talk to you and pick your brain. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Jeanniey Walden: What, in your mind, is happening in the world of retail media? Because here at Cannes it is all the conversation. Everyone is debating: is it going to be taken over by AI? What’s happening with attribution? Who’s going to be in it? Who doesn’t have a retail media network these days? What’s the skinny? Give us a scoop.
Drew Cashmore: I am so fascinated that this thing has moved from a pure media event to a media and retail media event. And we’re finally feeling like this is the thing, this is the place that retailers are truly trying to show up and differentiate themselves. Look, if you zoom out on the space, you’ve got a significant amount of dollars flowing into Amazon and Walmart at the top, and below that, about only 10% of the total retail media spend. What we’re trying to do in this industry, and what we’ve seen work in places like Europe, is shift dollars into the broader ecosystem and help rest of market overall grow. There’s a myriad of reasons why that’s happening, but overall, we’re trying to figure out how do we make this work for a large swath of retailers.
Jeanniey Walden: Well, I’ve got to ask the question between marketing and merchandising. Because when I was a CMO at a retail pharmacy, my chief merchandising officer would say there is one bucket of money that the merchandisers, the merchants, spend, and if you’re starting a retail media network, they’re pulling from my merchandising NCAP dollars into your retail media network and we lose dollars that way. True or false?
Drew Cashmore: Historically, I have spent my entire career trying to prove that that was false, that there were two buckets of money, marketing and trade. I do think that they’re becoming linked overall. And I think, even broader, everything from decisions on packaging to sourcing of materials for products is being looked at overall. And that’s a really exciting moment that we live in, that brands are saying, let’s focus on the next best dollar. Let’s think about where do I truly invest, be it packaging or cost of goods adjustment or a price reduction or a retail media ad to drive my overall business. But I think those two things are now more linked than ever. But I don’t think it matters, because the reality is brands have been taught to expect more for their investment. If we’re not effectively building the right infrastructure and technology and measurement and platform for them to get value out of their total investment, then we’re going to lose.
Jeanniey Walden: So you said it, brands are expecting more. And then you talked about measurement. What is the ultimate measurement that a brand is looking for that they can take back to their executives to show they’re getting more?
Drew Cashmore: Total growth. And I’ve seen it as incremental. I’ve seen the ask come in as a basic ROAS. There’s a wide variety of asks overall. But I think overall, if the brand is seeing growth within their retail partner, that is going to drive growth in their willingness to invest.
Jeanniey Walden: Well, growth overall, single-store growth, regional growth? What is growth?
Drew Cashmore: Single-retailer growth, I think, is probably the best way to think about it right now. But the reality is if a brand is working with a retailer that represents a material amount of their sales, they’re going to advertise, because they have to. Or they’re going to risk losing their share in that individual retailer. And so I think retail media, certainly we’re trying to up-level the conversation, we’re trying to make it easier to buy, we’re trying to make it more measurable. But if you strip all of that out, at the end of the day there are millions of people shopping in these retailers and trying to figure out what to buy. And if you’re not there, then you’re risking losing overall shelf space and share price.
Jeanniey Walden: Well, let’s talk about endemic versus non-endemic. Is there enough endemic opportunity for a brand? Do they need to seek non-endemic?
Drew Cashmore: I am obsessed with non-endemic as a growth engine for retail media, for the reason that I think it is truly differentiated in the creative and the benefit to the customer. If you think about retail media, 70% of it today is product listing ads. So it’s a product and a price in a search in a category. What non-endemic seems to do is offer real value by way of a discount in a product or access to something that you probably wouldn’t get unless you saw it through this particular ad. And so I’m really, really bullish on non-endemic. I will say, and I worked for Walmart for 13 years, we tried that whole time to introduce non-endemic. It is hard. It is really, really hard to do. And so I think that there are partners like Fluent that we both work with that are truly creating value in this industry that frankly has been too difficult for retailers to understand.
This conversation was recorded at Cannes and lightly edited for readability.
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